Give me an hour alone with the Polish government, and I will convince him to accept refugees [interview]

Refugees or immigrants?Can you push them abroad?Maybe there is no other way, because all the poor countries want to move to the rich, and we can't afford it?Such questions bother many and many of us, since people who dream of a better life in a peaceful, unheated wars of the country have appeared on the border of Poland and Belarus.Even as far as Lukashenko's policy, which brings them to this border, to destabilize the situation and force the EU to abolish sanctions, you can see that the Union is not coping.On its southern borders, people also try to get to the European continent and are also pushed out.Thousands die at the Mediterranean.

Profileile.James C.Hathaway is one of the most important world authorities when it comes to legal issues related to refugees.He lectures the refugee law to Michigan Law School, he is also a co -creator of the Humanitarian Organization of Asylum Access, who offers innovative legal assistance to refugees.

EYE.Press asked him what he was thinking about the situation on the Polish-Belarusian border and-above all-how to make refugees so a terrible fate as at Schengen's border at the global level.Profileileile.Hathaway has a thoughtful proposition for the last detail of such a solution.


Miłada Jędrysik, EYE.Press: The convention on refugee status is 70 years old this year.Meanwhile, over the years, it seems that rich countries treat them worse.And not only those "loosening ties of democracy", such as Hungary or Poland.USA, Greece also push people or hold them for years in inhumane conditions.Is the point that the pressure on the borders is too high, that governments believe that the political and economic cost of treating these people humanly is too high?

Profileile.James Hathaway: It's important to put the whole problem first in the right perspective.Many people think so - we are not able to help everyone.Meanwhile, 85 percent.Refugees in the world are in less developed countries.The entire developed world, the entire European Union, the United States, Japan, Australia - only 15 percent.all work.

The remaining nine countries are incredibly poor.So when we say that we are not able to cope with such a large number of refugees, it is logistically untrue.Because it is not such a large number.

I recently met with the Vice President of Colombia.It has just created a strategy thanks to which Colombia - a country that came out of the lasting civil war - accepts two million refugees from Venezuela.They will get a 10-year residence permit that can be transformed into permanent residence.If such a poor, war -destroyed country like Colombia can take 2 million people, then the quantities adopted by Poland, the European Union or the United States are very small.

We really have the opportunity to look after such a number of refugees.You just have to want.

Then why don't we want?

Well, did we suddenly become soulless and selfish?We forgot the lesson that history brings?Quite recently, Poles were looking for asylum in other countries.

Two million escaped or emigrated from Poland only to Germany themselves.

In my hometown of Canada in the 70s.The twentieth century, during the crisis in Quebec, people fled to France.

The heart of the refugee problem is the fact that it is an international system that no one manages.The Geneva Convention is the only international treatise on human rights that has no body supervising its implementation.The creators of the Convention took care of the very precise definition of the refugee, granted the refugees a very accurate set of rights, but there was no third dimension, i.e. a mechanism that separated the weights and responsibility equally between you.Then geography would not decide who will have to bear the biggest weight.

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The United Nations is not fulfilled here.When Syrians began to arrive in Europe five years ago, there was a moment when you could start fixing this problem.Instead of creating a binding system of a system that would allow the refugees to be separated in accordance with the possibilities and resources of a given country, the United Nations allowed the countries to produce this non -binding "global pact on refugees", which is only an empty talk.

And that's why individual countries do not guarantee that someone will help them if refugees appear on their borders.This happened in the case of Greece, which has more reasons to complain than any other country - because the European Union practically allowed it to take all the burden in the event of escaping from Syria.

But it's m.in.Because Poland and Hungary did not want to agree to Angela Merkel's proposal to relocate refugees throughout the Union.

I am convinced that if I had the opportunity to stay with the Polish authorities in one room for an hour, I would convince them that such a system is in their interest.

Let's forget about Poland for a moment.Let's imagine that you are a Colombia who has to deal with the current refugee crisis in Venezuela.You would feel completely lonely.You would not get any help, and on your border there would be not thousands, not tens of thousands, but millions of people.Nobody would be obliged to help you, at most you would get some charity help.

So as long as the care of refugees is atomized, this will look like this.I suggest a type of mutual insurance system.You pay for your home insurance every year, but you know that if there is a fire, someone will help you.We all agree here - you agree to pay insurance, they compensate for the damage in the event of a fire.

For me it is the most sensible and worthy way to respond to the appearance of refugees than permission to people to break through the border or crawling through forests.It is terrible for these people, but also bad for governments.

So why do the United Nations do nothing about this?M.in.Therefore - how terrible it would not sound - that international agencies need a problem, otherwise they will be unnecessary.They also do not want to do hard work, be such a securities committee, the body supervising the relocation of refugees and the allocation of funds.This is a political task, meanwhile, as they give away a thousand blankets now, everyone loves them and give a lot of money for it.

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But if you do something that can cause a dispute between countries, such as monitoring responsibility and weights division, the agency may lose part of the credibility and ease of action.This is afraid of the UN, and that's why it will come up with a little silly something, a global pact ws.refugees. Język jest tu znamienny: o uchodźcach, nie dlarefugees.Refugees are the subject of this document.

Bardzo jest panProfileileileesor optymistyczny.Poland did not even proceed to this little funny pact, because in the opinion of the PiS government it would impose too much obligations on our country.In addition, the government perfectly manages the fear of strangers on the borders, which gives it extra points.The more authoritarian the country, the lower the possibility to defend yourself against it.

Smutna prawda jest taka, że większośćrefugees dzisiaj przebywa właśnie w krajach rządzonych w sposób autorytarny.But you are right that it is difficult to deal with xenophobia used as a political weapon.

I try to answer it like this: it is not in the interest of Poland, the United States or any other state to have constant chaos on the border.Support in the election can be increased in a less risky way for you.

Even people fearing strangers will see this chaos and the fact that you can't see its end, so at some point they will ask themselves - why will they not fix it?

Maybe you are right that I am too optimistic, but my proposal gives governments to manage a refugee issue in such a way that they will be able to show that they actually control it, that they are effective.The authorities of the rulers also like it.China can be the best example here - Beijing is the most afraid that he will lose control.I think the same applies to someone like Victor Orbán.He would lose his xenophobic ace, but would gain the ability to show that he is effective and manages the crisis.

But who would act as a "securities committee" monitoring such a pact?UN, which did not want to do it in 2015?The same UN, which so dramatically failed, for example.During the war in Bosnia?

I am a great critic of the United Nations Agency DS.Refugees.But they don't have to be, it can be, for example.world Bank.You can take international agreements for environmental protection, there are different types of control mechanisms.

The UN had the opportunity to do something like this five years ago, because the world was looking.Everyone saw the escaping Syrians and wanted to do something about it.UNHCR then demanded from the Secretary General to entrust her with command of this process, but she had no plan.So maybe it would be better if another institution, operating by a different mechanism.

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Ale wciąż chodzi o to, że potrzebujemy tego trzeciego wymiaru – nie tylko praw dlarefugees, ale sprawnie działającego mechanizmu.Anyway, the preamble to the Geneva Convention is mentioned, its creators 70 years ago realized that he was needed.

This sounds more pragmatous, but the political will of several dozen countries is still needed to create such a mechanism.How to create such a political will?

Convince rich countries that they will benefit from this: predictability, ease of crisis management.Wherever refugees appear, in my model they will go to this international system.Rich countries - like Poland - would deal with people who will not be able to go home for years more.There will be time to x -ray these people in terms of security, crime - all those that we are afraid of. Z kolei biedniejsze kraje dobrze sobie radzą z przyjmowaniemrefugees w dużych liczbach na krótsze okresy czasu, ale gorzej z ofiarowaniem tym uchodźcom stałego miejsca do zamieszkania.This is a separation of responsibility - we all take part in this process, but we perform various tasks.

A jak nadejdzie na wielką skalę kryzys klimatyczny? Czy system wytrzyma te milionyrefugees? I czy w ogóle ci ludzie również powinni zmieścić się w definicji uchodźcy?

I don't like such a panic sowing.

Some of these people are already in the refugee definition - courts around the world recognize it.The question is whether you fall victim to discrimination when your island begins to immerse.The courts in New Zealand are already recognizing such arguments.If, for example,.All white people were resettled to the top of the island, and dark -skinned left over the ocean, after leaving the country they would be classic refugees.Such cases are already happening.

Those who will not be discriminated against refugees can fit in the category of statelessness - because their countries disappear from the earth's surface.In such a situation, we should change the Convention on Standays, not about refugees.The screw is not screwed in with a hammer, this tool is wrong.

On the other hand, the climate crisis can cause internal conflicts - for earth, water, for food.Then the people he touches will automatically become refugees.

Yes, most of the people affected by the climate crisis, if they manage to leave their country.

All fragments of this puzzle fall into their place if we only talk about refugees.But migrations are mixed - 20 percent.refugees przypada 80 proc.people who simply want to improve their living conditions.

Angela Merkel survived in 2016.Maybe it caused her humanitarian premises, but she also realized that the German infrastructure and pension system would fall in several dozen years if there were no hands to work.And the Syrians were well educated, hard -working - the best material for wonderful new citizens.In 50 years, people will speak - Merkel was a visionary.

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But among those who want to get to the rich country, refugees are not only 20 percent.Usually this percentage is much higher.Today, a Syrian, Afghan or Venezuelan is actually a refugee from the machine.And this is already 60 percent.asylum seekers around the world.

This is finally: what else would you tell the Polish government to convince him to accept such an international refugee mechanism?

The refugee system was not created as a humanitarian system, just to help countries deal with unwanted immigration in a convenient way for them.So I wouldn't be ashamed to go to a government and explain why it is in his best interest to move to a more organized system.If it is not there, people will still try to get through your border.

The point is for countries to manage it.And they must understand that if this mechanism is missing, they will pay a huge price when it comes to security.

We need to renew this system instead of eliminating it.Because it is like a beloved old car that has never passed a review, so someday he will stop driving.But if we re -comply and modernize it, it can serve for years.

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Miłada Jędrysik

Miłada Jędrysik - journalist, publicist.For almost 20 years associated with "Gazeta Wyborcza".She was a correspondent during the conflict in the Balkans (Bosnia, Serbia and Kosovo) and in Iraq.She also published M.in.in "Tygodnik Powszechny", Kwartalnik "Books.Reading magazine ".She was the head of the knowledge base on Culture.pl.From November 2018 to March 2020, she was the editor -in -chief of the "Przekrój" quarterly.